Photograph-Illustration: The Minimize; Photograph: Anthony Artis
Barack Obama isn’t the one one going from the White Home to Hollywood. Since leaving her political profession in 2016, Carri Twigg, former particular assistant to President Obama and director of public engagement for Vice-President Joe Biden, has labored as a producer and marketing consultant, combining her ardour for political change with storytelling. In 2018, she co-founded Tradition Home Media, a Black-, brown-, and women-owned manufacturing firm that focuses on elevating tales from marginalized communities and tackling “pressing cultural questions confronting America and the world.” As head of growth there, she helped launch two sequence this yr: Rising Up, a actuality sequence about younger maturity on Disney Plus, and Hair Tales, a documentary on Black girls, magnificence, and hair, at present airing on Hulu and OWN (sure, as in Oprah). However she hasn’t solely left the world of politics behind. Twigg was not too long ago appointed by President Biden to the President’s Advisory Committee on the Arts and the Kennedy Heart Board.
This week on the In Her Footwear podcast, Twigg spoke with Minimize editor-in-chief Lindsay Peoples about shifting careers, the similarities between the White Home and Hollywood — “politics is a storytelling train” — and her personal hair journey.
Pay attention and subscribe totally free on Apple Podcasts or wherever you hear. You may also learn the complete transcript beneath.
This transcript has been evenly edited for readability.
Lindsay Peoples: Welcome to In Her Footwear. I’m Lindsay Peoples, and I’m editor-in-chief of the Minimize. On this present I get to speak to those that we love and admire, and a few that we simply discover attention-grabbing. We discover how they discovered their path, what possibly have gotten of their approach, and the way they’ve introduced others alongside now that they’ve arrived.
Carri Twigg understands how storytelling shapes our actuality. She’s the co-founder and head of growth for Tradition Home Media, a Black and brown and woman-owned manufacturing firm that facilities the voices of those that are most marginalized within the trade. Culture House is behind the sequence Rising Up on Disney Plus, which got here out earlier this fall. It follows the lives of ten younger adults as they navigate their adolescent years. Most not too long ago, Tradition Home produced Hair Tales, which is a tremendous documentary sequence on Hulu and OWN. It tells the story of Black hair via the a long time, and options girls like Issa Rae, Oprah, and Ayanna Pressley as they stroll us via their very own private hair journeys. We talked to Carri about shifting careers, how she began Tradition Home, and the significance of telling our personal tales.
Each present, I do have to start out out by asking our visitor: What sort of sneakers do you’ve on? In case you don’t, what’s your favourite pair?
Carri Twigg: I’m 100% barefoot. I moved to L.A. in February and simply went full hippie, so I put on sneakers as occasionally as attainable. However my favourite pair … it was solely after transferring to L.A. that I discovered boots that I’m obsessive about, regardless of years of residing in New York and consistently being in want of them and having locations to put on them. So there’s a pair of Phillip Lim boots that I bought not too long ago that I’m obsessive about. It’s ninety levels, 100 levels, and I’m in these heavy, sizzling boots.
Lindsay: What would you additionally say it’s prefer to be in your sneakers at this second in time?
Carri: I’m on this second in my life the place I’m on simultaneous and form of mirroring skilled and private journeys. I’ve been a TV and movie producer for the final a number of years, however now my first reveals are popping out. However it’s my second profession, which is a journey in its personal proper. I’ve been a filmmaker and TV producer for the final 4 years. Individuals ask you, “What present?” and never having a present to level to, as a result of this trade strikes very slowly, is attention-grabbing. After which my former life in politics and authorities. They’re form of coalescing at this second, which I believe is an interesting skilled place to be in. My previous profession and my present profession are intersecting. However then it is also doing one thing for me personally, the place I’m feeling extra built-in as an grownup. The various journeys that all of us undergo, and the various those that we’re over the arc of our life, really feel way more in concord than they ever have. I don’t really feel like I’m working away from something. I don’t really feel like I’m attempting to forge my path someplace new or create a brand new definition. It’s all form of coming into some integrity, which is absolutely thrilling.
Lindsay: What was that course of like, going from working in authorities and coverage to producing and being in such a unique area professionally?
Carri: It feels actually attention-grabbing, however on the identical time it’s additionally actually acquainted. I believe that I’m nonetheless basically somebody who’s animated by the concept that society can and should change. And for therefore a few years I did that via campaigns or via coverage or via attempting to advance laws or a specific agenda out of the White Home. And now I’m form of doing the identical factor via storytelling. I believe that if we replicate completely different tales, if we share completely different tales which might be extra in line with who this nation truly is in the meanwhile, that’s a approach for us to have the ability to seed within the creativeness of individuals what our precise choices are, who we are able to truly be, what this nation truly is. And so to me it feels prefer it’s half and parcel of the identical work, simply with actually completely different jargon and actually completely different techniques, however the mission feels the identical.
Lindsay: Did you are feeling like sure abilities that you just developed although in that work have carried over and helped you on this work in any approach?
Carri: I do. I believe that if you’re engaged on coverage points otherwise you’re working a marketing campaign, you’re enthusiastic about big numbers of individuals. Politics is a storytelling train. And so if you’re working a presidential marketing campaign, you’re enthusiastic about the 250 million folks which might be going to vote. And then you definitely begin determining what issues inspire which group to take part, to care, to hear, to prepare, to mobilize, to vote. And it’s not truly that completely different than if you’re serving an viewers with a tv present. The Hair Tales is about Black girls and our hair and our journeys. If I’m involved in making a present on that subject, I would like to consider how that will probably be obtained and the way I can serve the viewers, and who’s the viewers, and what do they need to see? What do they need to hear from us? What will probably be emotional and resonant and impactful and provoking to them? And so in some ways, these abilities actually translate. As an alternative of doing them on behalf of a politician, I’m doing them on behalf of a tv sequence.
Lindsay: I need to speak about Hair Tales a bit of bit later, as a result of I’ve some questions on that too. However I need to begin with Tradition Home and Rising Up for Disney Plus. Inform me a bit about, why that particular undertaking, and what have been the highs and lows of engaged on a present that’s actually about younger maturity?
Carri: Yeah. That’s considered one of my favourite origin tales of something we’ve labored on. Brie Larson, the actress, director, and govt producer of this sequence, we met her and he or she got here to us and principally mentioned, “I need to do a present about disgrace. I’m going via this era in my life the place I’m actually reflecting on the ways in which disgrace reveals up in my life and limits me, or creates boundaries or obstacles that don’t have to be there. And I believe we should always have a extra strong dialog about disgrace. And if there have been somebody who may have advised me at 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, all the best way as much as 35, that these aren’t issues I needed to be ashamed of, I may need been freer, I may need been extra daring, I may need backed myself or guess on myself earlier in my life.”
And so we actually began with that premise, and the group of producers went round and all of us talked concerning the issues that we discovered, whether or not explicitly or implicitly, that we ought to be ashamed of, or issues that made us really feel unlovable as we have been rising up, even generally that we’re nonetheless working via and nonetheless scuffling with right this moment.
And it’s like, what would I’ve beloved to free 13-, 16-, 18-year-old Carri from? And let’s speak about that, and the way do you make a present round that? And the way do you begin modeling some finest practices round psychological well being and round care, and never simply self-care but in addition neighborhood care. One of many issues that we’re actually pleased with about that present is that it’s all centered round a peer-to-peer dialog. And it’s about them every taking turns caring for each other. It’s not at all times sufficient simply to care for ourselves. All of us have to be taken care of by the people who find themselves round us as nicely.
And so we thought via how we may mannequin that in a present with out it feeling like one thing that they placed on VHS and confirmed you in seventh grade gymnasium class. How will you additionally make it cool and make folks truly need to watch it? It’s leisure, it’s not an academic machine particularly. And in order that’s how that present got here to be. And I believe one of many nice classes of that present is that whereas we made it with younger folks in thoughts, it was therapeutic for all of us as people. And I believe the response we’ve gotten from so many individuals from 16 to 35 and above are identical to, “Wow, I wanted that right this moment. I wanted that 10 years in the past.” However it’s nonetheless proper on time. We’re actually pleased with that.
Lindsay: After I take into consideration work like that, I typically take into consideration the truth that those that have come earlier than us didn’t even actually have the area to be that retrospective, or simply to have the ability to actually take into consideration what issues they might need to change, or what issues they might desire a youthful model of themselves to know. Have you ever been capable of replicate on simply the concept that you had the chance to try this? As a result of I believe that’s additionally only a privilege that our technology has skilled for the primary time in a very long time.
Carri: Completely. I believe we’ve felt privileged at each flip making this sequence. And for us it was not solely about how one can acknowledge and maintain onto that privilege and perceive that positionality, but in addition nonetheless push for extra, and to be like, “That is so nice, We’re so grateful that you just’re doing this, Disney. We’re so grateful to your assist, and we might additionally like this to occur. We might additionally like that, and we additionally need to push the envelope and we additionally need you to approve this particular person to take part at a place that you just suppose could be a bit of bit extra senior than them, however we disagree.”
So it was nonetheless very a lot how will we acknowledge and honor and sit and be current with the chance that we have been being given, but in addition be actually clear eyed, that we got that chance as a result of different folks pushed for it? And so then what will we do in that second to push for whoever comes subsequent?
Lindsay: Talking of what comes subsequent, we now have to speak about The Hair Tales, as a result of I’m obsessed. I’ve been very excited for it to come back out for a very long time. Inform us about simply the undertaking from the start. How did Tradition Home get entangled, and what was your considering round desirous to be on a undertaking like that?
Carri: Yeah, so the idea is absolutely by Michaela angela Davis, who for a very long time had been working in hair and wonder and magnificence and vogue, to essentially synthesize and convey collectively the scholarship, the artistry, the style, the popular culture, and put all of them in dialogue collectively. And so constructing off of that idea, we labored with Michaela and Tara Duncan, who’s now the president of Onyx Collective, to develop a present. How do you truly construct a 40-minute episode off of that sort of conceptual work that Michaela had been doing? As soon as that began to take form, we have been capable of take it to Tracee, initially to see if she wished to take part as an govt producer. And as that dialog developed, Tracee, who on the time had additionally simply launched Sample, who has clearly been on this area and lived it from each angle over the course of her life, she very graciously wished to take part as an EP, wished to take part as a bunch, after which additionally actually gave us our thesis, which is, for a lot of Black girls, you’ll be able to monitor their journey of self-acceptance alongside their journey with their hair. As soon as Tracee introduced that to the desk, it gave an actual form and readability of imaginative and prescient to the undertaking, and we have been capable of actually take into consideration, okay, so what does that truly imply? How will we put in dialogue varied parts of the ecosystem which might be Black girls and our hair with that guiding north star? We got here up with the present and the idea, pitched it to a bunch of the patrons round city. Have been capable of dealer the primary -ver relationship between OWN and Hulu, that it might be simulcast on each of their networks. Miss Winfrey, Oprah, clearly, got here on as an EP as nicely — purchased the sequence, got here on as an EP, and agreed to be in an episode.
Lindsay: Informal.
Carri: Oh, I imply, the strikes of her, and the casualness of them. It’s probably the most refined flex in the complete world. It actually felt like … I don’t know sports activities. I used to be going to go for a sports activities analogy, however no matter one of the best basketball workforce of all time, just like the Dream Workforce, ’98 Olympics was.
Lindsay: Yeah, I’m a lifelong Bucks fan, so we are able to say the Bucks. That’s simply because I’m from Wisconsin, although.
Carri: There you go. I really like this. Mid-Westerners. I’m from Ohio. It simply actually felt just like the Dream Workforce. After which you’ve Mickalene Thomas working as a marketing consultant, bringing a few of her visible aesthetics to the present, Meshell Ndegeocello being the composer and actually serving to rating the sequence, all of our visitors who’re capable of take part. My very own sister was the manufacturing designer.
Lindsay: I really like that.
Carri: It was only a full kiki. It was wild.
Lindsay: There’s clearly been a handful of Black hair documentaries. What was it about this that you just felt was completely different?
Carri: I believe there have been a pair issues. I believe there’s some documentaries which have been very nicely completed, after which there’s some which have been completed from an outsider’s perspective. And so we have been actually cognizant about whose gaze that is all coming from. It’s not an anthropological train. We’re not wanting from the surface in at Black girls and the alternatives we make round our hair as some anthropological form of like “why would they try this?” sort of thriller. It was from the very coronary heart of it, and it was a celebration, and I don’t suppose there ought to be one present about Black girls and our hair. There ought to be 50.
And for us, it was about including to the canon of storytelling round Black people, Black girls significantly, and of the extraordinary intersection that our hair generally is a illustration of. Of our political lives, of our aesthetic lives, of our neighborhood and household lives. And that’s what made it so thrilling for us. It was a possibility to work with a few of the most fascinating minds and creators which might be working proper now, on a subject that all of us at Tradition Home may speak about for years on finish, which you must truly do, as a result of it takes years to make these items. And a possibility to do it in a approach that we felt hadn’t fairly been completed, which for us as makers and creatives is a creative train.
Lindsay: As you mentioned, it was created from the center and from girls of coloration who’ve readily skilled it. Why was it so necessary so that you can embody the actually weak tales of individuals like Oprah and Issa, and Black girls in Hollywood? I’m assuming it’s as a result of it’s a common expertise no matter who you’re, however I’m additionally curious why that was an necessary half for you guys to incorporate within the docuseries.
Carri: You mentioned it. There’s a frequent shared expertise amongst so many people because it pertains to our hair, because it pertains to how we grew up and the place, and simply girlhood or womanhood, or coming of age, or no matter you’ve. And hair is as a lot part of that as the rest. And so by monitoring the journeys of Oprah and Ayanna Pressley, and Chica and Issa, and all of those unimaginable extraordinary people, we additionally get to recollect and see who they have been, and see what their lives have been like, and what their struggles have been earlier than they have been on the vaunted place that they’re right this moment.
Doesn’t imply that they don’t belong on their pedestals or that they shouldn’t be held on this excessive esteem, nevertheless it’s additionally actually fascinating to listen to Oprah speak about rolling down her home windows, sticking her head out of it to dry her hair on her solution to her little job in Baltimore. I believe all of us relate to that. And so that have made her who she is as a lot as the rest. And so wanting to indicate that 360, a completely complete and holistic view of those girls as folks, is absolutely necessary. It’s not simply concerning the journal covers, it’s not simply concerning the finish of the journey, or the best moments of their accomplishments. It’s about all of the ups and downs that led to the place they’re right this moment.
Lindsay: Completely. After which, I used to be curious additionally for you, is there a private time the place you felt you had a really defining hair story for you rising up? Is there one thing that sparked lots of curiosity in you personally in your individual life that you just felt such as you actually wished to just be sure you guys seize on the display screen?
Carri: I resonate with the entire tales. There are moments in each single episode that really feel like they’re speaking on to me, however I believe I felt significantly aligned with Consultant Ayanna Pressley, having spent a lot of my life in politics. The overwhelming majority of Black people who find themselves in elected workplace are within the Democratic celebration. And so I very not often was in all-white areas. I very not often was in predominantly male, predominantly white environments. That simply wasn’t part of my profession very, very regularly.
And but I felt very a lot the pressures round respectability politics and my hair, and whether or not or not it might be thought-about skilled, and there could be commentary about it. So listening to her speak about her journey with Senegalese twists, listening to her speak about whether or not or not she was going to put on a wig — I don’t have alopecia, I’ve by no means been bald — however the underlying emotional arc of that story I believe was actually deep and resonant to me, and tracked alongside lots of experiences that I’ve.
The primary few weeks earlier than working on the White Home, the quantity of people that requested me when — not if, when — I used to be getting my hair relaxed to go work for Black folks, it was each heartbreaking and surprising, but in addition by no means. The actual intersection of respectability politics and Black political life actually, actually struck a chord with me.
Lindsay: In watching, I used to be so stunned at simply what number of intersections there are within the hair journeys of so many alternative sorts of ladies of coloration, and us not even working in the identical trade are doing the identical factor. And I at all times felt prefer it was odd and ironic. I began largely in vogue publications, and you’d suppose that there was a lot creativity, and simply that vogue is at all times purported to be probably the most ahead considering and free considering, nevertheless it felt very strict and slender so far as what have been the sweetness requirements nonetheless.
And I bear in mind very clearly once I wished to begin to put on braids, as a result of I favored them and I used to be obsessive about Moesha and I wished to attempt hers particularly, that it was such a giant deal to different Black girls that I used to be carrying braids within the office. And I believe that was one thing that I actually additionally recognized with once I thought of it within the sense of that should you have been working round an surroundings and an area that wasn’t possibly as various, that you’d expertise that. However I believe it’s additionally the identical if you find yourself nonetheless working with a various surroundings, that there are simply magnificence requirements from the surface world which might be inflicted upon us.
Carri: Yeah, completely. I had a job in D.C. earlier than the White Home, and I’d straightened my hair. I didn’t chill out it, I simply had a blowout. And I stroll into an workplace, and an older senior Black man on the workforce appears to be like at me and goes, “Oh, thank God. You look so a lot better.” And he was like, “I’ve been ready so that you can try this. Thanks.” And I used to be like, “Oh, I’m going to go moist my hair within the sink proper now.” I don’t even know how one can … And it wasn’t a 70-year-old uncle, it was like a 40-year-old man.
Lindsay: That’s why Hair Tales is such an necessary physique of labor for folks to devour and perceive and convey into conversations. So I’m very excited for folks to proceed to see it.
Carri: Thanks.
Lindsay: I need to discuss a bit of bit extra about Tradition Home, since you guys do marketing consultant work with lots of completely different leisure firms, and clearly we’ve talked about particular tasks that you just’ve labored on, however as a complete, you actually do work on establishing a cultural lens in lots of the work that you just’re attempting to create. What’s that work like at massive within the trade? Have firms been open and receptive? Do you discover that there’s a lot of pushback? Do you discover that persons are on the floor desirous to make inclusive work after which not likely? What’s it truly like within the trade total?
Carri: We began the corporate in 2018, and actually pre-COVID and pre-George Floyd’s homicide, folks would have a look at us like we have been aliens. They have been identical to, “What on earth are you speaking about?” After which all of them fell over themselves and scrambled to work with us, as a result of there’s such a dearth of manufacturing firms particularly that run manufacturing providers. There’s lots of Black girls which have manufacturing firms in Hollywood. Only a few of them truly run from growth to edit and supply the best way that we do. In order that was attention-grabbing and welcome, but in addition form of unhappy in its personal proper, as you’ll be able to think about, and as I’m certain you’ve skilled, proper?
Lindsay: 100%.
Carri: After which we’re watching that ebb a bit of bit. And I believe there was a giant piece within the New York Instances this week about how the push in direction of diversifying Hollywood has as soon as once more began to quietly die a sluggish loss of life within the background. And whereas I believe to a sure extent that’s true, by way of the extra sort of transactional makes an attempt at inclusion, I do suppose that there’s only a elementary actuality that has change into clear, that the demographics of the nation have modified. In case you’re underneath 18, the chances are that you’re a particular person of coloration. The chances are that you’re not solely accepting of the concept of a spectrum of sexuality and gender, however that you just discover you could find your self on that spectrum and speak about it.
And so there are simply elementary realities that you just can not escape if you’re somebody who’s working a enterprise on this nation, about the place your market share goes, the place your viewers is already, and the kinds of issues that they need to see. And so even when there’s much less of a fervor for various content material, no matter “various” means per se, it’s not as if the pendulum is swinging absolutely again. It will possibly solely go to this point, as a result of the nation is altering and it’s who we’re. And I believe for us at Tradition Home, we actually try, via our consultancy and thru simply the neighborhood that we’re attempting to construct, to assist as many individuals’s tasks as we presumably can, whether or not we’re producing it or not, as a result of the more healthy and extra equitable and inclusive the ecosystem of storytelling is inside the context of Hollywood, the higher we’ll do. Proper?
Lindsay: Yeah.
Carri: The higher you do, the higher I do, the higher a Hillman Grad does, the higher Tradition Home does. It’s simply the truth. And so we actually attempt to make it possible for we’re centering abundance and centering neighborhood and attempting to carry all boats as a lot as we presumably can.
Lindsay: There’s at all times conversations round who has the suitable to inform our tales, who ought to be telling our tales, and that viewpoint. Has your perspective on that shifted? Does it matter, or does it simply matter if they’ve the suitable instruments or deliver it to the suitable folks?
Carri: I believe it completely nonetheless issues who’s making one thing. I used to be studying a script right this moment truly, and I didn’t even have to see who wrote it to know that it was a white particular person writing Black characters. And it was identical to, “Oh, nicely, let me go and Google this particular person’s identify.” Properly, yeah, in fact. Precisely. So it’s nonetheless actually evident. And never as a result of they have been utilizing the fallacious phrases, it wasn’t so simple as that. It was identical to, who would say that? Who would suppose that? That doesn’t make any sense. It was simply this intestine feeling. And so I believe it completely does matter.
I believe what’s additionally actually necessary and that we discuss to lots of our consultancy companions about, is ensuring that they’re giving the identical sources to BIPOC creators that they’re to white creators. And they also’re giving white writers and administrators all these consultants, and all these script reads, and all this further assist to make it possible for they nail this neighborhood, or they do it authentically, or that they characterize this character nicely. And they should make it possible for they’re giving those self same sources to Black and brown people, or queer people, what have you ever.
It’s not sufficient to have a specific amount of melanin in your pores and skin. In case you haven’t learn a newspaper within the final 20 years, then possibly you’re going to overlook one thing. However it shouldn’t be your job. Black folks shouldn’t should be political. BIPOC folks shouldn’t should be political. They shouldn’t should additionally put on the twin hat of figuring out how one can characterize a specific group — even when they’re a member of that group — with authenticity or with a specific fluency round a set of circumstances, or round a political or coverage difficulty, in a approach that we wouldn’t count on white people to have the ability to. And so, what number of scripts are they getting? What are their consultants? What number of writers are they getting, and researchers? We’re adamant that these sources are shared equitably and equally, and we don’t make assumptions that simply because somebody appears to be like a specific approach that they’ve the both inclination or lived expertise to unravel for no matter a possible pitfall is.
Lindsay: Is there a dream undertaking that you just want to work on or that you just’re in search of as you’re going via scripts now, or one thing that you just haven’t completed but that you just’re like, I’m in search of this proper factor and I simply haven’t discovered it but?
Carri: Not likely. Nothing explicit. I believe if I had a extremely clear dream undertaking, I’d simply go make it. I believe me, Rae, and Nicole, all three of us, the founders of Tradition Home, we every have a pet undertaking, and I’ve a pet undertaking about reparations that I’m engaged on and enthusiastic about consistently.
Lindsay: I like to deliver up reparations in random common conversations. So I’d love to speak about this. I deliver it up on a regular basis.
Carri: I could make something about reparations. If that have been a recreation, I may win it. So my undertaking: reparations, reparations, reparations. However actually once I come throughout ideas and once I come throughout concepts, I’m at all times trying to really feel challenged. What’s my fringe of an idea or an concept? What’s a solution to speak about race, or a solution to speak about gender, or a solution to speak about id of any sort? How do I really feel challenged? I’m at all times in search of that. I need to really feel challenged.
I’m at all times in search of what seems like the following technology of a dialog. We’ve been speaking about race in the identical approach, as we’ve been speaking about feminism and gender in the identical approach. So I’m at all times in search of what’s subsequent. Who’s difficult our standard considering round these concepts? And doing so in an suave, cultural ahead, leisure ahead approach that received’t make audiences really feel like they’re at a sermon or at a lecture. Individuals know the place to go if they need a sermon, and we should always go away that to that.
Lindsay: And are there any tasks that you just guys are engaged on which might be popping out, or issues that you just’re engaged on proper now that you just’re enthusiastic about you could share?
Carri: We’re doing a three-part documentary with Prentice Penny a few folks’s historical past of Black Twitter, which is tremendous thrilling.
Lindsay: Ooh, that’s cool.
Carri: It’s going to be enjoyable. That’s popping out subsequent yr.
Lindsay: That’s enjoyable.
Carri: And we’re doing one thing — I don’t suppose I can say a ton about it but — however we’re doing one thing for the fiftieth anniversary of hip hop, about girls in hip hop, solely about girls in hip hop. That’ll come out subsequent yr additionally. It’s going to be nice.
Lindsay: Very cool. I’m so excited for you, and I’m so appreciative to have the ability to chat with you. Love all of the work you’re doing, and thanks a lot. That is enjoyable.
Carri: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Lindsay. I actually admire it. I’m a giant admirer of your work.
Lindsay: Similar.
Carri: It’s an actual pleasure to be right here.
Lindsay: In Her Footwear is hosted by me, Lindsay Peoples. Our producer and editor for this episode is Tarkor Zehn, our engineer is Brandon McFarland, and our govt producer is Hanna Rosin. The Minimize is made attainable by the superb workforce at New York Journal. Subscribe right this moment on the minimize.com/subscribe. I’m Lindsay Peoples, and thanks a lot for listening.
